If you could rebuild?

[HorrorHiro]

What Osiris said.

[reaper239]

And they're currently crumbling. A very short lifespan when compared to other empires. I would also respectfully disagree with regard to prosperity and innovation and cite the Roman/Byzantine empire which not only were leaders in advancing every aspect of education and science (relative to their time) but stretched more than 1400 years. America will never last that long without succumbing to the pocket of another nation.

we are also not an empire in the clasical sense. those empires took forever to build and just as long to fall, why? because they were primitive (relative to today). today, fortunes larger than anything the romans dreamed of are won and lost in seconds. and as far as prosperity and innovation, in our short 200 years we have gone from sailing the seas for years in wind powered boats to complaining that it takes about 18 hours to go around the world. we put a man on the moon and have come closer to understanding the true nature of the cosmos than anyone before us. i have a phone that can do more calculations, faster, than all of romes philosophers and mathmeticians. the romans starved for periods during the winters, i don't feel like cooking any of the weeks worth of food in my fridge so i go somewhere where people cook food and wait for me to pay them for their cooking skills. i can go in a matter of hours, the same distance it would take a roman days to go, even on their roads. i can be a scientist in my spare time, and i don't need to go to a college to learn everything i want to know about everything i want to know about. the knowledge of the world is at my finger tips. i am talking to you without talking to you, from an unknown location somewhere in the world, through a non-tangible medium using equipment that, without the advent of electricity, would've never come into being. i am learning about you, and i will probably never meet you. all of these innovations, and more, came from America, not rome. we have advanced more in the past 200 hundred years than in the previous 5,000 combined. and you're right, we are slowly crumbling, all thanks to socialist policies being implimented. you may think that America is not that great, but all of the modern amenities that you enjoy: electricity, light bulbs, ac, computers, internet, das auto, air planes, it all came from here, because this has been a nation that honors peoples rights to dream, and grants them the freedom to chase after those dreams.

[yarri]

What Osiris said.

What Reaper239 said......

[Eviebae]

we are also not an empire in the classical sense. those empires took forever to build and just as long to fall.

Just so you know; I think about this ALL the time. I know that's at least part of the appeal of zombie literature to me. So basically I could talk about it all day.

I think empires and governments fail because they can't change enough to remain viable (paradigm shift). Dysfunctional patterns grow larger and larger. Established interests (not just the rich) aren't able to/don't wish to make necessary changes for various reasons and the system stops working. Empires become an old sick bison that no one knows how to treat. Then the wolves come (well, first the greedier bisons, then while they are too busy to notice--the wolves).

That's way too simplistic I know, but i'm talking about the big, low resolution picture--the one that can span the most instances. For instance, a lot of those dysfunctional patterns were very functional at one point--or at least worked on some level for a large enough number of people.

I wonder if at what point it becomes impossible to catastrophically fail--as in become an abandoned ghost town like the Mayans empire. I guess there has to be something better to leave towards or no way back.

[Osiris]

we are also not an empire in the clasical sense. those empires took forever to build and just as long to fall, why? because they were primitive (relative to today). today, fortunes larger than anything the romans dreamed of are won and lost in seconds. and as far as prosperity and innovation, in our short 200 years we have gone from sailing the seas for years in wind powered boats to complaining that it takes about 18 hours to go around the world. we put a man on the moon and have come closer to understanding the true nature of the cosmos than anyone before us. i have a phone that can do more calculations, faster, than all of romes philosophers and mathmeticians. the romans starved for periods during the winters, i don't feel like cooking any of the weeks worth of food in my fridge so i go somewhere where people cook food and wait for me to pay them for their cooking skills. i can go in a matter of hours, the same distance it would take a roman days to go, even on their roads. i can be a scientist in my spare time, and i don't need to go to a college to learn everything i want to know about everything i want to know about. the knowledge of the world is at my finger tips. i am talking to you without talking to you, from an unknown location somewhere in the world, through a non-tangible medium using equipment that, without the advent of electricity, would've never come into being. i am learning about you, and i will probably never meet you. all of these innovations, and more, came from America, not rome. we have advanced more in the past 200 hundred years than in the previous 5,000 combined. and you're right, we are slowly crumbling, all thanks to socialist policies being implimented. you may think that America is not that great, but all of the modern amenities that you enjoy: electricity, light bulbs, ac, computers, internet, das auto, air planes, it all came from here, because this has been a nation that honors peoples rights to dream, and grants them the freedom to chase after those dreams.

You have to stop thinking so linear. People of that time would have said the same shit you're saying right now. Compared in the grand scheme of time? Nothing we've built will stand as long as structures built thousands of years before you were born. If you're going to give the current world you live in credit for it's current state without acknowledging that which came before... you're missing the bigger picture. You're also under-educated if you truly believe that all of the technological marvels you are using to ratify your argument came from America... you're just being ignorant. Your ignorance of history--and the world you presently reside in--aside, your argument is intended to provoke. Allow me to answer your questions.

Cars did NOT come from America--in fact they weren't even invented on this continent.

The airplane's origins are questionable. Alberto Santos-Dumont may be an interesting to read up on.

The internet? Timothy Beners-Lee, a Brit gave us that. Not America, my friend.

Computers? Konrad Zuse, a German, gave us the first programmable one.

Air conditioning had it's humble beginnings back in merry old 17th century England.

The light bulb? Humphry Davy gave the world the first electric light in 1809 and Henricg Globel built the first light bulb in 1854. He was a watch maker in Germany. America didn't get on board until quite some time later.

As far as electricity goes... you really need to open a book and check your facts before you start making claims that history doesn't back you up on.


This has absolutely nothing to do with what you think of America. It has to do with civilization as a whole.

[reaper239]

wow, here i am being civil and you go and insult me? allow me to educate you:

the first combustion engine automobile was assembled in 1846 by george baldwin selden in America. not only that it was henry fords application of the assembly line that made mass production of cars possible.

really? we're going to debate over the fathers of fixed wing flight? now you're just being disagreeable.

the internet, or arpanet as it was then known, began by connecting UCLA, stanford research institute, UCSB, and the university of utah... in america

the computer may not have been invented in America, but without us it would not be where it is today.

refrigeration was invented by oliver evans and air conditioning would not be possible without it

the electric light bulb was invented by thomas alva edison. an American

electricity was made available to the general public thanks to General Electric, an American company

so before you start insulting people, perhaps you should check your facts. and now a move you seem so to love so much to demonstrate your ignorance:

drops the mic and walks away.
i'm done. argue all you want, you've gotten all the rise out of me you're going to get.

[Osiris]

You realize you're only trolling yourself at this point, right? I'd pick up a book and read if I were you, because these facts you are quoting are wrong. The rest of the world knows it. But don't take my word for it. Look this shit up for yourself and see. Hell, half of it you can find on wikipedia. I've provided names and references for you to check. Your refusal to admit that you're wrong is your own problem. Nobody is insulting you, but you are clearly trying to insult me. But it's ok. Live in ignorance. I just won't be there with you.

Here, educate yourself so that I don't have to.

http://www.google.com/

[HorrorHiro]

Let's not turn intelligent debating to unintelligent trolling.

Reaper, I honestly don't think Osiris was trying to insult you.

Osiris, while I agree with you vast majority of the points you made, please remember that things on the internet can (and often are) misunderstood or misinterpreted. This is something that EVERYONE should try to remember.

[Osiris]

Let's not turn intelligent debating to unintelligent trolling.

Reaper, I honestly don't think Osiris was trying to insult you.

Osiris, while I agree with you vast majority of the points you made, please remember that things on the internet can (and often are) misunderstood or misinterpreted. This is something that EVERYONE should try to remember.

Let's hug it out, brochacho. People get upset when you burst their bubble, so much so that they refuse to check facts provided.

[Osiris]

Either way, this shit has gotten off track.

I think--if I were required to entertain a second option--I would go with a nice, comfortable feudal system. Wouldn't mind having vassals.